and then we will be back after the debate for all of the action and analysis. stay with us for a special midnight edition of "hardball." "politicsnation" with al sharpton starts right now. >> thanks, chris, and thanks to you for tuning in. tonight's lead, fight night in kentucky. less than three hours until biden versus ryan. the stakes couldn't be higher. both sides are pumped up. paul ryan seems especially pumped up. >> before too long, we could become as a saudi we were never intended to be. we could become a society where the net majority of americans are makers, not takers. 70% of americans want the american believe. they believe the american idea. >> ready to rumble. watch out, uncle joe. actually, "time" magazine released these photos today showing congressman ryan pumping

iron last december, not exactly the images he wants out the night before he needs to prove that he's ready to be a heartbeat away from the presidency. ryan's workout routine probably won't come up tonight but his macho vision for the country will and it should. ryan and romney are pushing a radical remaking of the social contract that americans have relied on for many decades. it's a investigation that includes a budget where 62% of the cuts come from the poor. cuts to medicaid, cuts to food stamps, pell grants, all while cuts to the defense department and oil industry continue as usual. ryan will have to defend that record tonight and he'll have to defend comments like these. >> before too long we could become a society that we were never, ever intended to be.

we could become a society where the majority of americans are makers, not takers. they believe the american idea. only 30% want the welfare state. >> takers and makers. it's a distorted view of the american people and a deeply cynical one and it will be challenged tonight by another view. >> we have a fundamentally different values set than these guys do. we believe america does well. america's always prospered when hard work is rewarded. when everyone has a fair shot. everyone plays by the same rules. everyone gets a fair shake. where everyone is held accountable, rich and poor. >> republicans are always saying they want to talk about values. well, tonight, paul ryan is going to have to defend the values underlying his policies, whether he likes it or not.

joining me now is chris hayes, host of "up with chris hayes" here on msnbc and author of the book "twilight of the elites" and krystal ball, co-host of "the cycle" also on msnbc. thank you both for being here. >> thanks, reverend. >> chris, let me start with you. does vice president biden need to point to the values of fairness in the ryan plan and now the romney/ryan plan? >> yeah. i think one of the things that was so remarkable and frustrating about the performance in the presidential debate was that romney seemed to essentially disown anything that he had previously advocated that was now unpopular. he pulled this remarkable u-turn. paul ryan -- it's going to be much harder for him to do that. he wrote the ryan plan. >> right. >> he can't run away from the plan that bears his name, the plan that bears his name that

would voucherize medicare. so i think the key is for joe biden to take the modern republican party, particularly the modern republican house caucus and hang it around the neck of paul ryan. >> well, ryan wrote the budget, as you said, and ryan is named after -- and he is the one that made some of these votes. kind of hard to run away from it. krystal, when you look at his record, it seems right for pickings. his budget raises taxes on the poor. it makes seniors pay $6400 more for medicare coverage, all while giving millionaires a $265,000 tax break. meanwhile, he voted for defense cuts he blames on president obama and mr. fiscal conservative voted to increase the debt ceiling by $4 trillion under president bush. seems like right pickens to me,

krystal. >> frankly, he can't be directly honest about the plans because they are toxic. it is not popular to fund tax cuts for the rich on the backs of the poor. that is not something that sells in this election. on the other hand, biden and obama have been very consistent and their policies are broadly popular. they are talking about restoring the middle class. they are talking about the american dream. they have a balanced plan that makes sense to americans. so i think it is very tough for paul ryan. not only does he have to defend his own budget but mitt romney's plans and he has to be able to reconcile the differences between what mitt romney has been selling and what his actual policies are. >> now, meanwhile, governor romney, chris, says that people in the country don't die from lack of health insurance. i'm going to read a quote. we don't have a setting across

this country where if you don't have insurance, we just say to you, tough luck, you're going to die when you have your heart attack. no, you go to the hospital. you get treated. you get care and it's paid for either by charity, the government, or by the hospital. we don't have people that become ill who die in their apartment because they don't have insurance. >> well, that's not true. >> that's a quote. >> well, that's not true. first of all, we know from several studies that tens and thousands of americans die every year from lack of health insurance. one study by harvard university puts that at 45,000 and a couple lower ones at 20,000. >> and a couple higher. >> what mitt romney is doing is something i haven't heard a single figure ever do, which is endorse the current health care status quo. and you can talk to hospital

administrators, the folks that run catholic charities, people in medicaid. the current status quo is where people show up in emergency rooms and it's the least efficient, most human and expensive way of delivering health care. that's the status quo that everyone agrees is broken that we should do away with and, in fact, was one of the main drivers. >> exactly. it's agreed to by both parties. >> no one says that it's a great system, people wait to get care until the emergency room. >> aside from services with emergency rooms where you could sit there forever and it's an amazing show of how detached he is of the average life of an american. but let me go back to you, krystal, because we talked about his opponent, mr. ryan. biden has always been able to sell himself as a president who

can relate to the middle class. listen to him doing the 2008 debate. >> look, i understand what it's like to be a single parent. when my wife and daughter died and my two sons were gravely injured. i understand what it's like to wonder if your kid is going to make it. the notion that because i'm a man doesn't know what it's like to raise two children alone. i know what it's like to not know if a child is going to make it. i understand. i understand as well as, with all due respect, the governor or anybody else for those people sitting around those kitchen table and, guess what, they are looking for help. they are looking for help. >> that is one of the strong suits, i think, of vice president biden. he can relate and he's gone through experiences that make him even more compassionate than your average politician, krystal. >> i think you're exactly right. it should be pointed out, too, that it takes a lot of courage to be that vulnerable in front

of the american people and lay yourself bare like that and joe biden is fair with himself in that way. if you look at the 20 oh 08 debate, not only did he connect very well on a personal level, but he knew what he was talking about in terms of the facts, bigs, he knew mccain 's record inside and out and i think he will be able to deal with whatever incarnation that paul ryan shows up tonight. >> and one of the things, chris -- and i'm running out of time. but i have to raise this to you. ryan also is at odds with his own running mate on a lot of issues. it's going to be interesting to see if anything like that comes up. medicare, $716 billion in medicare savings but ryan's budget assumes the exact same fundings.

the ryan budget leads to long-term cuts in education. while ryan voted for bailout, how will that be handle fd it comes up tonight, the ryan/romney -- >> this is someone who has been a hero of right wing idealogs. he is going to go out there before the american people and renounce what his entire career has been, which is working and working as part of the right-wing republican caucus and being a champion. is he going to sell that out on the national stage? >> catch up with chris hayes saturdays and sundays from 8:00 a.m. to 10:00 a.m. eastern and krystal on "the cycle" right here at 3:00 prk m. on msnbc. coming up, shocking comments from an ally of paul ryan. comments that are now forcing

mr. ryan to drop his old friend after he says, quote, some girls rate easy. plus, new problems for moderate mitt romney. a new tape from three years ago surfaces. this time, he's praising glenn beck. and great news, things are getting better so the right-wing conspiracy theorists have hit the halls of congress. you're watching a special edition of "politicsnation." as we get ready for the big vice president debate in kentucky, the place for politics, msnbc. >> the people in my neighborhood, they get it. they get it. these people know the middle class has gotten the short end. the wealthy have done very well. corporate america has been rewarded. it's time we change it. barack obama will change it. ♪

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have you joined the "politicsnation" conversation on facebook yet? everyone is making their prediction for tonight's debate. junior says, biden looks ready. adjo says, joe is going to do what he does best. tell it like it is. and we told you about this photo of paul ryan pumping iron in the new issue of "time." well, we decided to have a caption contest. wilfredo's caption, no time for facts. it's muscle time. we want your caption. head over to facebook and search "politicsnation" and "like" us to join the conversation that keeps going long after the show ends and logon tonight to tell us what you think during the debate. ♪ [ male announcer ] how do you make 70,000 trades a second... ♪

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it's less than three hours until the biden/ryan debate and they may spar over a topic that wasn't brought up in last week's presidential debate. women. for the gop, women's issues are not their strong suit. case in point, wisconsin state lawmaker who has been caught relaying some troubling information. he told a wisconsin paper that his father said, quote, consensual sex can turn into rain in an awful hurry. some girls, they rape so easy.

it's an offensive comment and pad news for paul ryan since he endorsed him in august. month after those comments were originally published. today, ryan's campaign calls those comments outrageous and offensive and says congressman ryan cannot support mr. rivard. it all speaks to the long record against women's rights. he carries 78 anti-choice votes and 38 co-sponsorsed anti-choice measures. this record could really hurt him and democrats say it's a key issue for the debate tonight. >> my best advice would be in one word to joe biden, women.

talk about women. >> if vice president follows her advice, paul ryan may have a lot of explaining to do. joining me now is political analyst and contributor to the grio and laura bassett, a woman who covers women's issues for the hu"the huffington post." >> i think that joe biden learning from president obama's poor performance in the debate is going to bring up women's issues. of course, there's his record on abortion and contraception, his 59 anti-choice votes and wanting to turn medicare into a voucher program. that's a big women's issue. women outlive men. wanting to repeal obama care, that's going to be a problem for

women. paul ryan is definitely going to have to answer about extremely important to women. >> you have vice president biden who is on the trail, very often touted his record. listen to this. >> my granddaughters have every single, solitary right that my grandsons have. every single one. whe whether equal pay for equal work, make sure women have control over their own bodies, control over their own destiny. >> a lot of passion backed up by a record in terms of his own career and voting and his own

advocacy. >> yes. i think joe biden was the author of the and paul ryan voted against reauthorization. so biden is the perfect person to call him out and talk about who paul ryan's friends are, why are you friends with todd akin and roger rivard. that's really what we're talking about. who is the real paul ryan here. are you anti-women or for women and women rights. >> here's how he responded to, quote, legitimate rape comments. >> his comments were outrageous. i don't know anyone who would agree with that. rape is rain. period, end of story. >> outrageous, over the pale. paul ryan himself is trying to redefine rape.

in 2011 he co-sponsored bills. those bills restricted the definition of rape. and then the language was changed. according to rhian, unless it's forceable rape, it's not rain? >> i think that's a really good question. forceable should be in the definition of rape itself. nobody want to be raped and i think that what gets lost among the outrage of all of these comments, of course, akin's comments about all of these bodies showing down pregnancy and women who rape easy, the comments are outrageous and offensive and the policies that sort of subscribe to this belief that women can't be trusted when

they say they have been raped. either they are too stupid or they are lying. that's why you need to categorize forceful and whatever kind of rape that they think there is. i think that what is really going to be telling is whether these congressmen who have made these comments are going to be elected. >> zelina, is that the reason when you hear her say whether they are going to be elected, look at the polls. is that the reason you see the president leading romney among women in virginia, he's 16 points up over romney, the president is. he's 12 points up in ohio, 13 points in florida, ten points in wisconsin, six points in colorado among women voters in those key swing states? >> yes. it's not only rape that we're talking about. contraception is a huge issue.

it's changed society in many ways. so women's access to contraception is the number one factor and allows us to go from second class status to first-class status. it allows us to have autonomy over our bodies and over our decision as far as our career path and family planning. >> laura bassett and zelina, thank you both for your time. >> thank you. coming up, moderate mitt. meet 2009 mitt. a new tape surfaces with him praising glenn beck. but the questions don't stop there. you're watching "politicsnation" as we get ready for a big night here on the place for politics. msnbc.

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we're back on "politicsnation" with another romney tape revealed. moderate mitt might want to hear this. mother jones uncovered this video showing governor romney in a taped message he did for an unaccredited utah college. you'll never guess who governor romney was introducing as the

very special guest of the night. >> i'm pleased to be with you at this event on behalf of the university. i'm there to introduce to you glenn beck. >> wow, glenn beck with the statesman and that's what he's saying about the weeks before the fund-raiser. >> overseas? obama is apologizing to the frenchy french for our arrogance. he's apologizing to the saudi arabia general king. i forgot, he's letting terrorists on to the streets. >> letting terrorists on to the streets. there's a statement. but the praise kept coming from governor romney. >> his approach is refreshing and he tries to focus on action,

on actually making a difference on learning that principles on freedom and liberty, on reading and applying the wisdom of our nation's founders and to the challenges of today. >> his approach is refreshing? interesting. let's see how refreshing it was right before that very same fund-raiser. >> you know what this president is doing right now? he is addicting this country to heroin. he's surrounding himself with marxist. >> they are trying to suck the life blood out of the economy. >> vampires? really, mr. romney? this sucking up to the right wing went too far. nice try, moderate mitt. but we got the tape and we got you. water will work for a few seconds but if you're not drinking it, it's going to get dry again. i recommend biotene. all the biotene products like the oral rinse...the sprays

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fox business reported that congressman darrell issa wants to look into whether officials are cooking the books on the job numbers in order to help the president out. >> now chairman issa wants to have hearings on this. take a listen. >> the way it's being done with constant revisions tells us that it's not as exact a science as it needs to be and there's got to be a better way to get those numbers or don't put them out if they are going to be wrong as much as half a point. >> hearings on the job numbers? really? this would put issa in the company of conspiracy theorists like jack welch and rush limb a limbaugh and his spokesman spoke out, the oversight committee has not announced or decided to hold or convene a hearing.

no plans? sure about that? because fox business later ran another clip showing issa talking about when he would hold the hearings that he supposedly isn't going to hold. >> well, now the top republican says he wants to hold hearings into thematter. take a listen. >> we intend to work every day through the november and december time to get these kinds of things done. we're hoping that it's a good nonpartisan time and this is an issue where our committee has an important jurisdiction to make sure we get it right. >> every day through november and december. sure sounds like issa wants those hearings to me. the truth is this. the economy is getting better on jobs, on housing, and sale. and republicans just can't accept it. joining me now is former ohio

governor ted strickland and david corn, washington bureau chief for mother jones and an msnbc political analyst. he's the author of a new book, "4 "47%," thank you both for joining me. >> thank you. >> governor, why are the republicans ignorant about the economy getting better? >> well, the president is getting credit from it from the american people and that alarms them just a few days, before the election. ohio and other states are seeing improvement in their economies. this is good for america. whatever is good for america should please parties and ail candidates. >> now, david, when you look at the fact that there's clear

evidence of the economy getting better when we look at the fact that in -- if we go to better jobs help be the middle class, virginia, wisconsin, colorado, where the president is up, people are beginning to see the improvement. >> they certainly are. and particularly in the battleground states, including governor strickland in ohio and such. people are feeling that -- i also think that there comes a point in time that people start feeling bad about feeling bad. they want to look or pay more attention to the glimmer of hope. we're still in sort of a half empty, half full situation where the economy -- there are these signs of improvement but they are not going obviously going as fast as other people would like to see. this gives president obama the

opening to say, yeah, things could be better. i can make them better. that is an untestable proposition. he's still out there saying, listen, it would have been better if i will be president and will be president. folks out there not satisfied who don't feel you will still remain m remain frustrated will turn to them. that's the basic dynamic from the get-go and that's why they are still close and will be close to election day. >> the fact is that the economy is moving in the right direction and the more it does the less we have a rationale for romney's campaign. we just got some new number showing the economy is definitely on the right track. and weekly jobless claims at 339,000. that's the best in 4 1/2 years. we have september 4 closures. we're 180,427.

that's the lowest numbers in five years. september auto sales was 1.9 million cars sold. that's the best in four years. now clearly we want these numbers better but when you are breaking the last 4 1/2 years, 5 years, four-year records, you can't say that we are not recovering and moving in the right direction. >> well, we are, reverend al and in part because of the salvation of the auto industry. in ohio and in other states that is so hugely important. and mitt romney was on the wrong side of that issue and today there are men and women working in ohio and michigan and indiana and elsewhere who would not be working if the president had not taken the leadership, made the tough decision to save the industry. mitt romney said, let detroit go bankrupt. ohioans have not forgotten that and furthermore, the only thing

that mitt romney wants to do in terms of moving the economy forward is to take us back to the same policies that were followed and i am braced embrac george bush situation. ohioans are commonsense folks and that's why he's getting the support that he's getting. >> now, the latest poll in ohio has the president at 51% and mitt romney at 45%. does that reflect you, governor, in your state? >> i am so happy with where we are. governor romney has been living in ohio for the last few days. but our economy is coming back because of the recovery act, because of the auto industry, and because of the policies that this president is pursing.

they also understand and i repeat myself, reverend al, they don't want to go back to the policies that led to this recession. they understand that president obama is the person who is fighting to save social security, to keep them from voucher rising medicare, to provide pell grant assistance to our students. the president is on the side of working people. mitt romney in the most -- quite frankly, disturbing way, said that 47% of us don't count. and ohioans heard that from his own lips, from his own voice, and they haven't for gotten that. they understand that barack obama is on the side of the working folks. >> david, can mitt romney win without ohio physical barack obama, the president, wins ohio, no republican ever won without ohio. can romney win without ohio? >> it looks like his campaign

believes that he can't, given the amount of time -- not only that he's spending in the great state of ohio but ryan as well. they've been double-teaming the state. often you kind of split up candidate to cover more grounds. they obviously think it's very crucial. the electoral math becomes exceedingly difficult. it has to be an inside straight if he doesn't have ohio. it bows doboils down to the oth swing state. people in ohio are seeing this race in a different way than other people in swing states and romney is having the hardest time counting barack obama. i think it does go back to the bailout. maybe a little bit to the recovery act. and it's a place for the obama strategy of tailoring its campaign to different states. seems to be working quite well and was very much a quite smart way to go about doing it.

>> governor ted strickland, david corn, thank you both for your time tonight. >> thank you. coming up, the biden/ryan showdown. the big question tonight, how aggressive will they be? will there be a political knockout? this is "politicsnation," the place for politics, msnbc. >> talk with me in my neighborhood. go back to my old neighborhood and go up to scranton with me. these people know the middle class has gotten the short end. the wealthy have done very well. corporate america has been rewarded. so it's time we change it. i'm bara ck o bama, and i approve this message. "i'm not in favor of a $5 trillion tax cut. that's not my plan." mitchell: "the nonpartisan tax policy center concluded that mitt romney's tax plan would cost $4.8 trillion over 10 years." vo: why won't romney level with us about his tax plan, which gives the wealthy huge new tax breaks? because according to experts, he'd have to raise taxes on the middle class

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we're back with a big night in the world of politics. in just over two hour, joe biden and paul ryan will be on stage for their first and only debate. the drama's built. the expectations couldn't be higher. will there be a political knock kou knockout? we don't know but i guarantee it's a must see tv. joining us is dana milbank and erin mcpike. thank you both for being here. >> thank you. >> dana, what are you expecting from joe biden tonight? how aggressive will he be? >> oh i think he's going to be quite aggressive.

certainly to make up for president obama's performance last week. he's got to really tie paul ryan to the house republicans who are extremely unpopular, portray him for a leader as the house republicans and particularly in other areas and joe biden needs to engage people on a real guy level on a way that he can relate to people. he needs to be careful not to be deep in the weeds of policy. easy to get into that kind of debate with paul ryan. that's not going to win this debate for him. >> now, erin, mr. ryan has never been in a national debate but he's debated. let me show you a 2010 debate he had with congressman debbie wasserman schultz live on cnn. take a look at a debate style then. >> i put on a budget plan to get one person in congress, me. i didn't put out a budget plan for a majority of congress. i was trying to get this discussion about entitlements and debt crisis and in an adult

level. i'd like to get to an adult level conversation and clearly that's not happening. >> to invest social security in wall street? if that had happened in the last couple of years, paul, that would have ended to protect what people have -- >> giving young people the option the same option that we have. if it's good for us in congress, why isn't it good for anybody else? look, our -- >> our social security is the same as anybody else's in the entire country and you know it. >> a little over the top, erin. >> yeah. i don't think that's exactly what we're going to see from paul ryan tonight. i think what we'll see is paul ryan will channel the performances that he gave in earlier 2010 at a republican retreat in baltimore that the president showed up to and also a health care summit at the blair house in early 2010 when the parties were talking about health care reform and those two events paul ryan went head to head with president obama and was seen by many democrats as

the smartest, most capable republican in the room. and that's the kind of paul ryan he's going to channel tonight, at least that's what the campaign is telling him to do. >> well, dana, the vice president has shown repeatedly that he has a very strong capacity to connect with americans on very serious issues. let me show you this. >> look, the people in my neighborhood, they get it. they get it. these people know the middle class has gotten the short end. the wealthy have done well. it's time we change it. barack obama will change it. >> let's get to it, folks. the american people don't give a darn about what is going on up here. they are sitting down at their tables, they put their kids to bed and they are worried whether or not their child is going to run into a drug dealer on the way to school, they are worried about paying for their mortgage.

>> i understand what it's like to sit around the kitchen table with a father who says, i've got to leave, champ, because there's no jobs here. >> that emotional connection with voters and working class americans, is that effective and do you think we'll see a lot of that tonight from the vice president? >> without a question. i think you're going to get that personal appeal from both men on the stage and they both have that kind of story to tell. i'm sure we're going to hear plenty about pennsylvania and coal country and maybe he'll start talking about his irish ancestors again. i think you will get that. biden has the same kind of advantage that romney had last fwheek that people are expecting to do better. that's a good position for biden to be in because he is, in fact, very comfortable in these settings. >> erin, he's expected to do

better. he told reporters that he was nervous about tonight. look at this. >> joe biden has been on this stage many times before. this is my first time. so, sure, it's a nervous situation because joe biden is one of the most experienced debaters that we have in modern politics. but the achilles heal he has is president obama's record. i'm looking forward to giving the american people a clear choice. >> what i heard today is that they don't know which joe biden is going to show up. is it going to be the likeable vice president that we know? is it going to be the scrappy guy from sclranton, pennsylvani? they don't know how paul ryan will react to some of it. that's the big concern and why he's nervous. >> let me ask you something, dana, a little interesting to me.

apparently mr. ryan want to be referred to tonight as mr. ryan, not congressman ryan. isn't that a little strange? >> it's not strange at all, reverend. congress is about as popular as psycho killers right now, according to polls. of course he doesn't want to be associated with it. >> but that's the only job that he's had. >> yes, that's true. but i guess he's entitled to be called mister. i don't think joe biden is goi to let the audience forget that paul ryan has been in congress and he's a key figure in the house republican leadership that americans deeply are distressed. >> dana milbank and erin mcpike, mr. sharpton thanks you for your time tonight. there's a chance -- a chance paul ryan won't tell the truth tonight. how will vice president biden respond? that's next. [ male announcer ] eligible for medicare?

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finally tonight, truth and consequences. for months many of us have been pointing out the romney campaign relationship. shall we call it a casual relationship with the truth? on issue after issue, from taxes to abortion rights to immigration, mitt romney has consistently emulated his campaign's most potent image, the etch-a-sketch and paul ryan has been right there with them. rape is rape says the candidate who previously co-sponsored

legislation that drew a distinction, a legal distinction between forceable rape and other kinds of rape. but now facing voters who want the truth, the campaign has changed tactics rather than fight the charge that ryan/romney are not telling the truth, republicans have a new idea and it's a doozy. simply attack the president and democrats for even questioning romney's truthfulness. >> the other side well, he lied his way through that whole debate. how did you feel about that? >> lie about what? this is something that he's been saying all along. it's sort of like someone that is in a sandbox and lost the game and they are going to kick sand and say, you liar. >> it seems pretty clear that their new strategy is basically just call us liars to descend us down into a mud and people get

demoralized and then they can win by default. >> karl rove writes in "the wall street journal," alleging mr. romney is a serial disreceiver as the president and top advisers are doing is a hard sell. really? i must have watched a different debate and a different campaign. don't believe me. just listen to him, both sides of him. >> there were so many misrepresentations it's going to take me a while. number one, i said that we're going to cut taxes on everyone across the country, including the top 1%. >> i will not reduce the share of high-income individuals. i know you and your running mate keep saying that but it's just not the case. >> tonight, vice president biden needs to push past the spin. paul ryan may not be able to handle it but millions of voters watching are demanding it. biden needs to be